Out and Back Podcast

Grizzly bear Grizz 399 stands on two legs in a meadow, surrounded by her four cubs.

Meet Grizzly Bear 399, the Most Famous Bears in the World

by Mary Cochenour May 19, 2023

written by Mary Cochenour

The Queen of the Tetons has emerged from hibernation—with a cub! At 27 years old, Grizzly Bear 399 now holds the record for oldest bear to reproduce, and she’s the oldest mother bear in the greater Yellowstone ecosystem.

Every year, hundreds of fans stake out in Grand Teton National Park awaiting her return from her winter slumber. She had last been spotted in mid September. That left many of her fans worried. So when Griz 399 and her cub emerged on the evening of May 16, onlookers including Jill Hall cried, the Jackson Hole News & Guide reports.

The cub in tow this week is Griz 399’s 18th, over the course of eight litters. For more than a decade, Griz 399 has been living her best bear life in the front country of Wyoming’s Grand Teton National Park. Thousands of tourists, wildlife watchers, and photographers flock to the park’s Pilgrim Creek area to catch a glimpse of Griz 399 and her cubs feeding on an elk carcass, scrounging for berries, and taking naps in the sun, all before the public’s eye.

Griz 399’s fame exploded in 2020 when she crawled out of her winter den with four tiny cubs in tow. Wildlife watcher Maureen Matsen has been scouting wildlife in Grand Teton National Park for 40 years. Viewing animals in their natural habitat helps Matsen de-stress from her high-stakes job as an ICU nurse. She says the feeling when Griz 399 comes into view is palpable.

“The adrenaline is super high; the excitement is super high,” Matsen says on episode 16 of the Out and Back podcast

. “And the minute she appears or one of those cubs pokes up its head, you just hear the ‘click, click, click, click, click, click, click’ of all the cameras going off. It’s just such a funny thing. I almost thought I’d just start filming these photographers because of the joy on their faces.”

Grizz 399 and her four cubs walk down the side of the road away from the camera in Grand Teton National Park. — Griz 399 on high alert as she shepherds her four cubs down the side of the road in Grand Teton National Park. Photo credit: Maureen Matsen

For many, Griz 399 embodies resilience and hope. Matsen is among them.

“It’s just giving people a lot of hope during a year where we’ve all dealt with a lot of really hard things,” Matsen says. “I think it’s been just this uplifting good news that this bear exists and that you have a chance of seeing her if you go up there.”

Griz 399 and her four cubs making their way through the sagebrush. Photo credit: Tom Mangelsen

Wildlife photographer and conservationist Thomas Mangelsen has been documenting Griz 399’s life for almost 15 years. Tune into episode 16 of the Out and Back podcast, in which he sheds light on how this majestic and wild bear mastered navigating crowds of tourists who come to the park just to see her.

“She will outfox most of us,” Mangelsen says. “We’ll be looking down the road, but she’ll just go through the willows and say ‘I don’t want to go through the crowd. I’ll just take the kids across the road down by the creek.’ We just laugh at it, because she’s so damn smart.”

Tom Mangelsen looks towards the camera as he sits in a field with his long-lens camera set up on a tripod. Snowy Tetons loom into the cloudy sky in the distance. — Mangelsen waits for wildlife to appear in Grand Teton National Park. Photo credit: Tom Mangelsen

Mangelsen says Griz 399 is a special bear because she appeals to human emotion. He recalls Griz 399 mourning her cub after it was hit by a car and killed. Mangelsen saw the distraught Griz 399 “sobbing” on the roadside near the body of her cub, grieving much like a human mother would.

But as cuddly and adorable as Griz 399 and her cubs appear, they are not domesticated animals. Grand Teton and its neighboring Yellowstone National Park are not zoos by any stretch of the imagination. These parks are home to wild animals that can attack if provoked. Park officials remind wildlife watchers to keep a safe distance of 100 yards or more, watch animals from the safety of a vehicle, and use binoculars to view animals from far away. Never approach wildlife.

Grizzly bears can be dangerous if people get too close for comfort. That’s what happened in 2007, when Dennis Van Denbos unknowingly walked into Griz 399’s space during an early morning outing at the Jackson Lake Lodge. The bear charged at Van Denbos. He hit the deck and suffered several bites from 399 and her three yearling cubs before people intervened.

“They’re just going to eat me,” Van Denbos thought. “There’s nothing I could do. There’s no way I could fight off four grizzlies.”

In this episode of Out and Back, Van Denbos gives a blow-by-blow account of the encounter. Though his injuries took months to heal, he explains that he felt no animosity for the mother bear and was relieved that wildlife officials spared her life following the attack.

Montana based journalist Todd Wilkinson says this decision to let Griz 399 and her cubs live proved to be a pivotal moment in grizzly bear recovery in the Greater Yellowstone ecosystem. Since then, Griz 399 has expanded her ever-growing family tree, producing multiple sets of healthy and vibrant cubs.

Todd Wilkinson smiles for the camera while sitting in a sunny field at the base of the Tetons. — Wilkinson enjoys a sunny day in the Tetons.

“She’s been this amazingly fertile bear, and the cub production comes from a mother that’s getting good nutrition,” Wilkinson told us in 2020. “The number that’s been used is seven litters, including three sets of triplets, plus one quadruplet.”

At 27 years old, Griz 399 has become a grandmother bear many times over. Everyone was surprised when she woke from hibernation in 2020 with four cubs — a highly unusual event in bear reproduction. Now that she’s long in the tooth, her fans are wondering how long she’ll live.

Don’t miss this episode as Wilkinson and Mangelsen discuss the many dangers grizzly bears face in the lower 48. They dive into Griz 399’s ability to adapt, crediting her intelligence for her long life and survival against the odds. Tune in to hear the details of why Griz 399 sticks so close to the road, what kind of mother she has become, and how you may or may not see this famous bruin if you visit the park.

Learn more about Griz 399 by visiting her Instagram page. Read her Wikipedia page and Mangelsen and Wilkinson’s glossy-paged book: Grizzlies of Pilgrim Creek. See Mangelsen’s photography by visiting his gallery in Jackson, Wyoming, or follow him on Instagram. Read Wilkinson’s non-profit Mountain Journal to discover public interest issues facing the Greater Yellowstone ecosystem and for a greater understanding of the inter-relationships between people and nature in the American West. Follow Maureen’s beautiful wildlife and landscape photography on Instagram.

Special thanks to Maureen Matsen, Dennis VanDenbos, Thomas Mangelsen and Todd Wilkinson for contributing to this show.

The cover of "Grizzlies of Pilgrim Creek: An Intimate Portrait of 399" shoes Grizz with three of her cubs walking down a beach. — Cover of “Grizzlies of Pilgrim Creek.” Photo credit: Tom Mangelsen

Episode Highlights

4:00: Wildlife watcher and amateur photographer Maureen Matsen grew up looking for wildlife when she was on long road to Grand Teton National Park. To keep them entertained, Maureen’s dad would pay her and her siblings cash if they spotted an animal.
5:15: Maureen seeks out wildlife as a way to download the stress of her job an an ICU nurse.
5:45: Maureen seeks out all kinds of wildlife in the park but bears, because they are not an every day sighting, are the piece de resistance.
6:10: Grizzly Bear 399 has very distinct markings: a heart-shaped face with blonde coloring down her snout.
7:05: Grizzly Bear 399 lives along the roadside in the Pilgrim Creek area of Grand Teton National Park.
7:20: Hundreds of people line the roads just to get a glimpse of 399. But on Maureen’s first outing this year, she missed the chance to see 399 and her cubs.
8:30: The pandemic has been heavy and these animals have brought so much hope and joy in such trying times.
9:20: Maureen went back a few weeks later and Grizzly Bear 399 popped out of the sagebrush trailing four little cubs behind her. And the crowd goes wild.
11:28: This bear is being stalked by hundreds of tourists and professional photographers just trying to get a glimpse of 399’s glory. The joy when she appears is palpable.
12:50: Professional Wildlife Photographer Tom Mangelsen describes the return of grizzly bears to Grand Teton National Park. A grizzly bear showed up on his back porch in 2006. That was his introduction to Grizzly Bear 399.
14:30: Tom recalls that last year, Grizzly Bear 399 was fatter than ever before. He speculated she would have triplets.
14:45: Griz 399 surprised everyone when she came out of hibernation with four tiny cubs.
16:50: Todd Wilkinson has written about Grizzly Bear 399 for National Geographic magazine and then collaborated with Tom Mangelsen to publish a book: Grizzlies of Pilgrim Creek.
17:25: Grizzly Bear 399’s life has been more dramatic to watch as the years go on.
18:00: Bears are not fearsome creatures; they only want to protect her young.
18:50: 399 lives along the road because it’s safer for her babies, and she does all of her bear business with a grandstand of people around her.
20:20: The front country has turned out to be the perfect habitat for Griz 399, who has raised seven litters along the roadside over the years.
21:43: Griz 399 has exuded amazing tolerance for human beings; she can navigate cars and hundreds of people without “losing her cool.” Tom says Grizzly Bear 399 has become a master at navigating crowds.
23:45: But not so fast. Grizzly bears are dangerous and wildlife officials advise to keep your distance, stay in your car, and never feed a bear.
25:00: Dennis Van Denbos was at the wrong place at the wrong time in 2007. He was mauled by Grizzly Bear 399 and her then yearling triplets. He lived to tell us about it.
28:21: Griz 399 jumped out of the bushes about 20 feet away and charged at Dennis. Three “teddy bear shapes” stood in the background.
29:25: Dennis saw this striking image with the sun shining on her — a sight Dennis will never forget. Dennis started to back away but stumbled off the road.
31:10: Dennis is face-to-face, eye level with Griz 399. And she charges.
31:50: Dennis hits the deck and Griz 399 and her three cubs bite him in the back and backside.
32:50: “They’re just going to eat me.” Dennis contemplates the end of his life.
33:00: People intervened and Dennis survived. Dennis understood why she attacked, she was feeding on a carcass and was stressed. He would have been very disappointed if the park had decide to kill Griz 399 because of the attack.
37:30: The decision to let Grizzly Bear 399 live after the mauling of Dennis turns out to be a pivotal moment in Grizzly Bear recovery in the Greater Yellowstone ecosystem. Griz 399 went on to have multiple sets of cubs.
38:40: Grizzly Bear 399 displays emotions humans can relate to.
40:00: After the death of her cub “Snowy,” Grizzly Bear 399 “balled” and grieved her baby’s death. Tom describes how distraught the bear was.
41:00: Grizzly Bear 399 is 24 years old, and that makes her a grandmother bear who isn’t expected to live much longer.
41:50: Todd explains how grizzly bears face many dangers in the world: human encounters and traffic.
42:00: We have this homegrown nature safari in the Yellowstone ecosystem.
42: 15: Todd describes how the story of Griz 399 brings us all together.

Next Episode: The Year of the Fastest Known Time with Buzz Burrell

The pandemic canceled nearly all the running races this year, but that only fueled the fire for pent-up athletes to take down the “fastest known times” on many classic and iconic routes around the world. Next time on the Out and Back podcast, Shanty and Mary catch up with Buzz Burrell, well-known “father of the fastest known time,” about everything FKT. Buzz takes us through the rise of the FKT objective, what makes a solid FKT route, and how his popular Website fastestknowntime.com documents new records. With a 30 percent increase over last year’s records, Buzz describes the allure of the solitary push for a fastest known time.

Buzz Burrell runs down a snowfield on Mt. Rainier in a white-out. He's carrying an ice axe and shouldering a cord of rope. — Buzz Burrell runs down Mount Rainier.

Buzz has championed many FKT’s of his own, including the first John Muir Trail and Colorado Trail speed records. He set records on Yosemite’s signature and scary Half Dome route, the 100km “O” Circuit in Chile’s Torres Del Paine National Park, and Zion’s Angel’s Landing. A trail running legend, Buzz was the visionary of some of the most sought after and iconic lines in Colorado, including the L.A. Freeway and Milner to Berthoud Pass, sometimes known as the “Pfiffner Traverse.“

In this episode, 68-year-old Buzz breaks down the realities of aging, reminding us that no one can stop the clock. Buzz implores us to keep moving even as the years creep up. You won’t want to miss this down-to-earth chat as Buzz delivers his tips to keep moving and gives us this year’s round-up of robust FKT activity. Plus, you’ll never guess what indoor activity Burrell has mastered.

Learn more about FKT at fastestknowntime.com. Listen every Friday to the Fastest Known Time podcast with host Buzz Burrell and featuring some of the fastest athletes on the planet.

Last Episode: Trails, Trials, and The Trek with Zach “Badger” Davis

In case you missed it, check out the last episode of Out and Back where Shanty and the Real Hiking Viking team up to interview Viking’s good friend and hiking legend Zach “Badger” Davis. Thru-hikers may know Badger as the founder of the popular backpacking resource, The Trek. Badger has also written Appalachian Trials and Pacific Crest Trials, psychological guides to tackling the Appalachian and Pacific Crest Trails.

In this episode, Badger reveals the path from thru-hiker to the creation of community on the Trek and his popular podcast Backpacker Radio. Shanty, Viking, and Badger rifle through the different skillsets needed to thru-hike the AT, PCT, and CDT. They discuss how thru-hiking has evolved over the past decade. And all three of them share how the trail serves as therapy, including the inexplicable catharsis of accomplishing the seemingly impossible. Listen through to the end to learn Badger’s favorite off-the-beaten-path backpacking trip. Seasoned and aspiring thru-hikers alike won’t want to miss this episode to learn how to find the light at the end of the dark, green tunnel.

Learn more about Badger on theTrek.co. Follow Badger’s adventures on Instagram, and tune into his podcast, Backpacker Radio. You can also hear more hilarity from Viking on his first Out and Back appearance from earlier this season.

Meet the Hosts

the host of the podcast Andrew Baldwin wearing an orange hat and blue jacket with a frosty beard, smiling

Andrew “Shanty” Baldwin

In 2019, host Andrew Baldwin completed a southbound thru-hike of the Appalachian Trail. After five months on the trail, Baldwin returned home to pursue a career in voice acting. A friend of the Gaia GPS company, Baldwin was a natural choice for hosting the Out and Back podcast.

In each Out and Back episode, Shanty strives to bring you conversations with people who spend an extraordinary amount of time outdoors. Listen in as Shanty taps into each backcountry expert’s superpower so that you can take their knowledge and experience with you on your next adventure.

Mary smiles while lying down and resting her head on a rock. She's wearing a purple jacket, gloves, and a black buff around her ears.

Mary Cochenour

Mary is the Out and Back podcast producer and a writer and editor at Gaia GPS. Before joining Gaia GPS, Mary worked as a lawyer, newspaper journalist, ski patroller, Grand Canyon river guide, and USFS wilderness ranger. Mary holds degrees in journalism and business as well as a Juris Doctor degree from the University of Montana. Mary is licensed to practice law in Montana and Nevada.

When she is not in the office, Mary works as a guide for Andrew Skurka Adventures in wild places around the west, like Rocky Mountain National Park, Yosemite, and the Brooks Range in Alaska. Learn more about Mary on Instagram. Also, read her tips on how to plan your first solo backpacking trip.

May 19, 2023

A person sits at the edge of a canyon holding her phone, with a ZOLEO unit attached to her backpack.

Gaia GPS Out and Back Podcast

Everything You Need to Know About Satellite Communicators

by Abby Levene December 1, 2022

written by Abby Levene

Let’s face it—there’s no excuse to get stranded off the grid anymore. Thanks to surging competition and massive technology improvements, satellite communication devices have become lightweight, user-friendly, and economical. These palm-sized units allow you to send messages from anywhere in the world, let others track your progress, and provide a direct line to help.

There’s a handful of satellite communication devices to choose from, including Bivy Stick, Somewear, ZOLEO, Garmin, and SPOT. Last year, we compared their prices and monthly subscription plans here.

How exactly do satellite communication devices work, and can you trust them? We sat down with Morris Shawn, President of ZOLEO Inc, to give you the inside scoop on how the ZOLEO Satellite Communicator works.

What is a Satellite Communicator?

A person holds his ZOLEO unit in one hand and a phone in the other while sitting above a lake.

A satellite communication device like ZOLEO’s allows two-way messaging from anywhere in the world, even without cell service. The device connects to the Iridium global satellite network, a constellation of low-hanging satellites that cover 100% of the planet. While many brands of sat communication devices employ this technology, Shawn started ZOLEO just 18 months ago because he saw a glaring gap in the market.

“Existing devices weren’t providing customers with that sort of intuitive, fully functional messaging experience that people have come to expect from their smartphones,” Shawn says.

ZOLEO puts messaging first, meaning that it’s incredibly easy to text using the ZOLEO app on your phone. ZOLEO also wisely sends the message with wifi or cell signal if that’s available. Unlike many other sat communicators on the market, ZOLEO delivers messages over cellular and wifi. This means that you’ll never miss a message again, even if your ZOLEO device is turned off.

Sat communicators also allow you to share your location with others, so they can track your progress on a project or simply check in to see where you are. Some models, such as ZOLEO’s, can give you the weather. And perhaps most importantly, these devices have an SOS button.

What happens when you press the SOS button?

A person looks at their phone in the dark. Their ZOLEO unit is hanging from their backpack.

If you or someone you encounter finds themselves in a situation in the backcountry in which they cannot get back to safety without assistance, the SOS button on your sat communicator can save you. Simply press the SOS button on the device, or the SOS button in the app. Doing so sends an SOS message along with your GPS location directly to an emergency response center. For ZOLEO, that’s the GEOS International Emergency Response Coordination Center, who manage these calls from all over the world.

GEOS communicates directly with the person who pressed the button. If they’re unavailable, GEOS reaches out to the emergency contacts indicated on your account. If help is needed, GEOS will coordinate with a local emergency response team to get help to you as soon as possible.

Seem too good to be true? Schedule a test run to see how the SOS button works. But don’t just press the SOS button for fun, Shawn warns.

“We do see a lot of accidental presses,” Shawn says. “We see people pressing the button because they are just testing the device and don’t realize doing so is going to set a whole chain of events in motion.”

If you do press the SOS button by accident, don’t panic. You’ll have a chance to cancel the SOS request.

The Gift of Safety

Person holds a ZOLEO in one hand and their phone in the other while sitting on some rocks.

December 1, 2022

two skiers on top of a snow ridge with mountains in the background

Adventures Backcountry Skiing Gaia GPS How-To Out and Back Podcast

How to Avoid Another Deadly Avalanche Season

by Mary Cochenour January 21, 2022

written by Mary Cochenour

Avalanches killed 37 people in the U.S. last winter, making it the most deadly season in modern history. Why was 2020-2021 so dangerous and how can we avoid avalanches this winter? Get the answers to these burning questions in our new winter safety series, dropping on the Out and Back podcast today.

In this four-part series, avalanche forecasters expose the factors that played into last season’s tragic fatalities. Tune in to hear the details of one of the most chilling avalanche accidents in Utah’s history. Learn how seasoned ski mountaineers make the tough decision to turn around just shy of the summit. And get a crash course on how to read an avalanche forecast so you can be plan safer routes on your next tour.

Listen to all four binge-worthy episodes at once, or pick them up in a random order. However you listen — don’t delay. Each episode gives you real, actionable insights that you can put to use in your next winter adventure.

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Episode 43: How Last Winter Became the Deadliest Avalanche Season of All Time

Last winter was nothing short of a perfect storm. A dangerously weak snowpack plagued the entire nation. At the same time, people were hungrier than ever for fresh air and fun. This deadly combination clouded people’s judgment and put them at greater risk, says Ethan Greene, Director of the Colorado Avalanche Information Center.

“Part of what we saw last year, I think, was that we were all living in a difficult environment,” Greene says. “And that made it hard going to the grocery store. It made it hard going to school. It made work hard. And when we had time away from those stresses and got to go into the mountains, it made making decisions in avalanche terrain difficult.”

*Director of the Colorado Avalanche Information Center Ethan Greene, PhD.*

The unusual circumstances also brought with it surprising demographics. Greene distills the statistics to tell us what age group, gender, and experience level was most at-risk for getting caught in an avalanche last year. Plus, Greene takes a look at they way conditions are stacking up for this season. Don’t get your hopes up. This season could be shaping up to be just as dangerous as the last.

Episode 44: Lessons from Utah’s Wilson Glade Avalanche

Last February, two separate backcountry ski parties headed out for what they thought was lower-angle, safer terrain in the Wilson Glade area of Utah’s Wasatch Mountains. The avalanche risk was high that day, but the two parties were prepared. They studied the avalanche forecast, made conservative travel plans, and carried all the right safety gear into the mountains. But, precautions aside, the skiers were swept away in a colossal avalanche. Four of eight people died.

What went wrong?

Avalanche Forecaster Nikki Champion of the Utah Avalanche Center, investigated the accident. She gives her best insights on the lessons that can be gleaned from this tragic incident.

“I think this accident really hit home with a lot of backcountry users,” Champion says. “Because it was a lot of decisions that most of us could see ourselves making: being in lower-angle terrain, traveling one at a time, skiing the slope multiple times, and not seeing any obvious red flags in that area.”

Champion walks us through what we can learn from this tragic accident. Learn about how to spot and avoid connected terrain. She enlightens us on the dangers of uphill travel. Plus, hear how one survivor’s quick thinking and rescue skills saved the lives of others.

*Slope angles in the area of the Wilson Glade avalanche range from 40 degrees to 23 degrees.*

Episode 45: Avoiding Summit Fever with Ski Mountaineers Luke Smithwick and Iain Kuo

In the fall of 2021, ski mountaineers Luke Smithwick and Iain Kuo attempted an unsupported, first ski descent of the world’s seventh tallest peak — Mount Dhualagiri in Nepal. They spent weeks advancing to the mountain’s 26,705-foot summit, but high winds and increasing avalanche danger held them back from the top. After months of planning and training, Smithwick and Kuo were forced to retreat, leaving the ski record on the table for another day.

The decision to turn around didn’t come easy for Smithwick and Kuo. But sticking with an objective mindset helped them stave off summit fever. Their number one tip for making good decisions in the mountains? Erase any assumption of how things will play out.

“I have zero expectations going into the mountains,” Smithwick says. “I’m like, wow, the car started, we’re leaving town. Great. Let’s celebrate that. Okay guys, everyone celebrate.”

*Ski mountaineer Luke Smithwick on the shoulder of Mt. Dhualagiri — the world’s 7th highest peak. Photo by: Iain Kuo*

Smithwick and Kuo review their decision to turn around just shy of Dhualagiri’s unusually harsh and exposed summit. They check their decision-making process and their egos against the popular FACETS acronym that is widely taught in Avalanche 1 courses. Tune in to this conversation to learn where Smithwick and Kuo nailed the human factors, along with a few vulnerabilities that they have to constantly work to keep in check.

Episode 46: How to Read the Avalanche Forecast

Checking the avalanche forecast should be at the top of your safety checklist. It predicts the avalanche danger for your favorite zones and give you a heads up on worrisome problems within the snowpack. But how much stock can you really put into the daily avy forecast report?

US Forest Service Avalanche Expert Simon Trautman says avalanche forecasts should be your building block for planning a safe day in the backcountry. However, once your feet are on the snow, the forecast always takes a back seat to your observations in the field.

*US Forest Service Avalanche Specialist Simon Trautman* *of avalanche.org*

“The whole point behind the avalanche forecast is that they’re a starting point for your daily planning,” Trautman says. “But people need to understand that what they’re doing is providing an expert’s idea of a pattern that exists across the landscape.

“They’re great resources but it’s kind of like a weather forecast. If you get out there and it said no rain and it starts raining on you, you need to reassess and you need to figure out what that means for your plan that day. Do you just continue to have your picnic or do you change plans?”

Tune in as Trautman dissects the avalanche forecast into manageable sections. He teaches us the first things to look at and how to get the most out of the avalanche forecast when planning your next tour.

Episode 20: Avalanche Safety Tips with Bruce Tremper

If you need more ammo in your avalanche safety arsenal, go back and listen to Out and Back’s episode 20 with renown avalanche expert Bruce Tremper. Author of Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain and Avalanche Essentials, Tremper draws on his 30-plus year career in snow science to give us his masterful tips for avoiding avalanches. His advice is pretty simple: stick to low-angle terrain.

“Whenever there is uncertainty in the snowpack, the terrain is always the answer,” Tremper says. “You can cut your risk in half from going from 39 degrees down to 34 degrees. And you can cut your risk in half once again by going from 34 degrees down to 30 degrees. The handiest tool that you can use in all the world of avalanches is slope steepness.”

Learn Tremper’s low risk safety ritual and get some advice on what to do if the unthinkable happens and you get caught in an avalanche.

*Avalanche expert Bruce Tremper, author of the book “Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain”* *digs a snow pit in Utah’s remote backcountry.*

Episode 21: Buried Alive — Bruce Tremper Tells His Story

It’s almost impossible to grasp the power and force of avalanches, unless of course you’ve actually been caught in one. Avalanche expert Bruce Tremper brings us a little closer to that experience with his story about how he triggered — and was buried in — an avalanche in Montana. He describes the feeling of having the “rug pulled out” from under his skis, being swept down the steep mountain, and what it felt like when the avalanche finally roared to a stop. Go back to episode 21 of the Out and Back podcast to get the blow-by-blow from Tremper on how he survived the avalanche that should have killed him.

Tap into these Avalanche Safety Resources

Visit avalanche.org for safety resources and avalanche forecasts in your area.
Sign up for avalanche awareness and rescue courses with American Institute for Avalanche Research and Education.
Watch the Know Before You Go video to get pumped about avalanche safety.

Consider donating to your local avalanche center so they can keep those avalanche forecasts coming your way!

January 21, 2022

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The Best Advice We Received in 2021

by Abby Levene December 26, 2021

written by Abby Levene

As the world remained in flux, the Out and Back podcast continued bringing you the best advice, insight, and thrilling tales from the backcountry. Hosts Shanty, Mary, and Abby delved into the worlds of wildfire management and avalanche forecasting. They dissected thru-hiking’s deepest secrets, and even explored the mysterious connection between owls and UFOs.

Thank you, dear listeners, for embarking on this journey into the inner recesses of adventurers and experts’ minds with us. To ring out Out and Back’s second year, we’ve rounded up the top performing episodes — and top pieces of advice — from 2021. They include how to train for high altitude expeditions in the city to finding the absolute best cup of backcountry coffee.

Don’t see your favorite episode on this list? Drop us a review on iTunes or a message on Instagram to let us know what it was! We’d also love to hear what you’d like to learn about in 2022. And if you’re eager for more Out and Back content, check out our roundup of the best episodes from 2020.

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How to Train for Hiking Season with Backcountry Fitness

How can you train for backcountry adventures from the city…during a pandemic? Billy Gawron of aptly named Backcountry Fitness is here with answers. A personal trainer, Gawron expertly trains himself and his clients for high altitude objectives, backpacking trips, and all-around hiking fitness from his hometown of Boston, MA. No mountains and no gym membership required.

Gawron equates getting in shape to building a house. You have to start with the foundation.

“If you try to build a house on top of a really crappy foundation, the house is not gonna last very long,” Billy says. “So you want to make sure that you solidify not only your core stability, but your stability around all your joints.”

Gawron shares the number one thing we should all start working on right now and gives us the key to balancing strength work with endurance training. He breaks down some pervasive myths about training, including if you actually need to train at all. He also answers the most pressing hiker questions, like how to train your feet and ankles to withstand long days with a heavy pack, how to prevent pesky and debilitating knee pain, and how to prepare for altitude while at sea level.

If you’re dreaming up some big plans for the summer, you won’t want to miss this episode.

Thru-Hiking Secrets with Halfway Anywhere

A self-proclaimed random guy on the internet, Mac of Halfway Anywhere and his famous PCT and CDT thru-hiker surveys have turned him into a hiker legend.

In this episode of Out and Back, Mac, who has thru-hiked the PCT and CDT himself, weaves his eight years of PCT and CDT survey data together with his first hand observations to illuminate key pain points along the trails, how much a thru-hike will really cost you, and how these long trails have evolved over the past decade. Hint: he doesn’t think it’s all been for the better. Mac dishes his controversial view of trail angels and trail magic. Plus, Mac spills the tea on the key reasons hikers quit the trail.

“Money is a big factor that sneaks up on people,” Mac says. “They don’t realize it is going to be as big of an issue as it ends up being.

Mac has not thru-hiked the Appalachian Trail and does not conduct an AT survey. In fact, Mac swears he will never hike the east’s longest trail. Tune in to this episode to hear AT thru-hike veteran Shanty try and change his mind.

Backcountry Coffee with the Pros

Coffee is life for many of us. It’s our morning ritual, a jolt that shakes us out of the afternoon doldrums, and a pick-me-up when we need to burn the midnight oil. But in the backcountry, brewing the perfect cup can be complicated. A pour-over leaves you with messy grounds to haul out, and instant coffee often falls short on taste. We turned to some of our favorite professional hikers — Heather “Anish” Anderson, the Hiking Viking, Adventure Alan Dixon, and Liz “Snorkel” Thomas — to unmask the secrets to brewing the best cup of coffee in camp.

Turns out their methods for making coffee on trail are as wild and varied as their personalities. Learn how Anish found a food coffee substitute on her record-breaking AT thru-hike. Get Hiking Viking’s hilarious take on why fast and cheap coffee is his pro move. Get Adventure Alan’s superior backcountry brew setup, and find out the results to Snorkel’s scientific, blind study on 14 brands of instant coffee by tuning into this episode.

Amanda Monthei on Life with Fire

Amanda smiles for the camera in a hardhat.

Former wildland firefighter Amanda Monthei lifts up the curtain on fire management and misperceptions on this episode of the Out and Back podcast. Armed with four years of experience working on engine and hotshot crews in Idaho and Oregon as well as her experience as a wildfire Public Information Officer, Monthei unearths why wildfire seasons seem to escalate in duration and severity year after year.

“You can’t just exist superficially within the landscape,” Amanda says. “You have to be an active member of it. We’ve been suppressing fire for too long. We need to like recognize that fire very much belongs in these places.”

Monthei explains why wildfires remain vital for ecosystem health, and how humans misunderstand this life force. She gets into the history of wildfire management in the U.S. and how we’ve primed conditions for fires of unprecedented scope. Amanda dives into what we can learn from indigenous fire management practices, and how we can better coexist with fire going forward.

Learn how you can make the most of new life teeming in burn scars, and how you can fold fire into your life on this episode.

How to Avoid Another Deadly Avalanche Season

Listen to all four binge-worthy episodes at once, or pick them up in a random order. Tune into the Winter Safety Series here.

Bonus: Top 5 Episodes of the Gaia GPS Offroad Podcast

We also started a brand new podcast for overlanders this year! The Gaia GPS Offroad podcast brings you conversations with experienced offroaders and overlanders from around the world. Listen in as host, fighter jet pilot, and experienced overlander Wade May dives deep under the hood with experts in the field. International travelers and backyard explorers alike transport you to their most harrowing encounters, biggest lessons, and most epic adventures on the trail.

Here are the top five episodes from the podcast’s inaugural year. Let us know what you think by dropping us a line on Instagram or by leaving us a review on iTunes!

Casey Kaiser: Jeep on Fire
Casey Kaiser was on a solo trip in Eastern Oregon’s remote backcountry when all of the sudden his yellow Jeep Wrangler burst into flames. Tune in to hear the harrowing story.

Mountain State Overland: The Perfect Build
Building out your dream overlanding vehicle can be an overwhelming task, leaving you in a state of “analysis by paralysis.” But don’t worry, Jason Specht of Mountain State Overland is here to help. Jason recently built out a Toyota Tacoma and a couple of 4Runners. He walks us through what he learned from that process and how to dump your hard earned cash into the upgrades you need instead of the upgrades you want.

Dirt Sunrise: Offroad Recovery Gear
Tim and Kelsey Huber of Dirt Sunrise Adventures quit their jobs a few years ago and sold almost everything they own to pursue overland travel on a full-time basis. Their first major adventure took them to South America on the Pan-American Trail. After two years plus on the road, Dirt Sunrise is back in the states and ready to talk about their adventures abroad.

Marco Hernandez: Camp Cooking with Ovrlndx
Is overlanding really just eating your way through the beautiful places in the backcountry? Marco Hernandez of Ovrlndx discusses everything camp cooking. Author of The Overland Cook, Hernandez is best known for his spicy hot, south-of-the-border cuisine. Everything from his traditional birria tacos to fresh, homemade salsa, Marco delivers his best tips for gourmet cooking from the back of the Jeep.

The Rimrocker Trail with Trails Offroad
John Lumia of Trails Offroad gives us a complete report of the Rimrocker Trail, a classic route in America’s southwest. Lumia gives away all the trail’s little secrets, including the best time to go, trail ratings, and things to see along the way. Tune in to get all the details you need to make a successful run on the Rimrocker — even if it’s your first time overlanding.

December 26, 2021

Bruce examines the snowpack in a forest.

Gaia GPS Out and Back Podcast

Avalanche Safety with Snow Science Expert Bruce Tremper

by Mary Cochenour November 30, 2021

written by Mary Cochenour

Photo by Jim Harris

Backcountry skiing and riding can be both tempting and intimidating. On one hand, the allure of unlimited, untouched powder quickly draws you in. On the other hand, the sobering threat of deadly avalanches forces you to pump the brakes. When you can’t trust the snowpack, experts say your best bet is to seek out safer, less-avalanche prone terrain.

How do you do that? The answer lies in slope steepness, says Bruce Tremper, author of Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain and Avalanche Essentials. Opting for mellow tree runs over steep backcountry bowls and couloirs can reduce your risk of getting caught and buried in an avalanche.

Bruce writes in a notebook while examining the snowpack in a deep snowfield. His shovel and skis are just visible in the bottom of the photo.

How a Close Call Led Bruce Tremper to a Career in Avalanche Forecasting

Tremper’s advice comes from a first-hand mistake that sent him rocketing down a slope in an early-season avalanche at Bridger Bowl, Montana. A pro ski patroller at the time, Tremper was crossing a known avalanche path when the whole chute cut loose under his feet. The slide swept Tremper down the mountain and rumbled to a stop. He survived without physical injury, but the close call made an indelible mark on his life.

“That was a huge wake-up call for me,” Tremper says. “That thing really should have killed me. It changed my life and I went ‘whoa, I want to learn as much as I can about avalanches’.”

Experiencing the power of that avalanche sparked Tremper’s lifelong interest in snow science and spawned his more than 30-year career in avalanche forecasting. He studied science of avalanches at Montana State University, where he earned a Master’s degree in Geology and Meteorology. Tremper then tested his knowledge on the snow safety teams at Bridger Bowl and Big Sky ski resorts before shifting into forecasting, first working for the Alaska Avalanche Center and filling the director’s chair at the Forest Service Utah Avalanche Center. He served as the director of the Utah Avalanche Center for 29 years, retiring in 2015 to pursue more avalanche forecasting and safety roles on his own terms.

“I love avalanches,” Tremper says. “Avalanches will never let me go.”

Bruce sits in front of a row of computer screens. — Photo by Adam Clark

Avalanche Safety Tips and the Low Risk Travel Ritual

Predicting avalanche behavior naturally led Tremper to studying and teaching avalanche awareness and safety techniques. His books on the topic have become required text for many avalanche safety courses. Tremper advocates for everyone to develop a personal routine, a practice that you put into play every time you venture into the backcountry. Tremper calls it the “low risk travel ritual” and it should be so familiar that the routine comes automatically to you.

Get all the details on Tremper’s “low risk travel ritual” in Episode 20 of the Out and Back podcast. Tremper uncovers his personal routine for safety, beginning with checking gear and avalanche forecasts before he leaves home. Learn about the observations he makes on the drive to the trailhead, and his tenets for safe backcountry travel when he finally puts skis on his feet. Tremper dissolves avalanche myths, talks about the magic of picking a perfect partner, and dishes the low down on what to do if you get caught in an avalanche.

After you listen to Tremper’s safety tips in episode 20 continue on to episode 21 of the Out and Back podcast to get Tremper’s personal story of what it felt like to be swept away in avalanche and how that close call drew him in to becoming one of the world’s leading experts in avalanche science and forecasting.

To reap more of Tremper’s wisdom check out his books, Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain, Avalanche Essentials, and Avalanche Pocket Guide (Mountaineers Books). Learn more about avalanche safety at avalanche.org. Find and sign up for an avalanche education class with the American Institute for Avalanche Research and Education.

November 30, 2021

Gaia GPS Out and Back Podcast

Planning a Thru-Hike Next Year? Here’s What You Need to Know.

by Abby Levene October 21, 2021

written by Abby Levene

Before Mac of Halfway Anywhere thru-hiked the Pacific Crest Trail in 2013, he struggled to find useful information about the trail. Sure, he read anecdotal thru-hiking accounts. But what worked one for one person might not work for him. He wanted data. So after completing the trail that year, Mac started a PCT survey to gather that data for himself.

The results somewhat dismayed him.

“I’m a very good representation of just the average hiker,” Mac (whose “real” name is Tyler Fox) says. “I thought I was doing something cool. But I was actually just doing something that all the people who are just like me are also doing.”

In 2019, the last year of robust data from the trail, 60 percent of respondents identified as male. Nearly a whopping third (30 percent) were in their mid to late 20’s. And over a third (37 percent) of PCT hikers did not train before their hike — just like Mac.

But as Mac surmised, the data also proved useful. Mac’s findings suggest hikers wildly underestimate how much a thru-hike costs. The average amount spent on a successful 2020 PCT thru-hike was $8,059 or $58.79 a day.

In fact, underestimating thru-hike finances proves to be one of the primary reasons people abandon the trail.

“Money is a big factor that sneaks up on people,” Mac says. “They don’t realize it is going to be as big of an issue as it ends up being. Before I headed onto the trail, I was like, ‘I’m going to be out there just like five months in the wilderness, whatever. I’m not going to stay in hotels. I’m not going to hang out in town.’ And then in reality you’re out there for like 10 days and it’s been raining for five and all your stuff’s covered in mud and you’re like, ‘Whatever, I’m definitely going to go stay in a hotel.’”

Mac smiles in a selfie while hiking over snow.

After Mac thru-hiked the Continental Divide Trail in 2017, he started a survey for that thru-hike as well. Surprising to many, the CDT mostly sticks to well-defined trail. But unlike other long trails, the CDT provides numerous “alternates” hikers can take to supplement or supplant the official route. Mac found that the majority of thru-hikers take many of the same alternates, including the Gila River alt in New Mexico (96 percent), the Cirque of the Towers alt in Wyoming (84 percent), and the Spotted Bear Pass alt in Montana (82 percent).

A self-proclaimed random guy on the internet, Mac has no proven validity to his findings. But he’s here to help prospective thru-hikers actually glean information that will be useful in their monumental undertaking. Mac may not be a scientist, he thinks with the precision of one, constantly trying to refine and improve the surveys with each iteration.

Half the challenge with these surveys is simply finding people to take them. The key is to loop people in before they start hiking, otherwise Mac ends up with a skewed sample of finishers and doesn’t get that critical data from people who quit the trail along the way. If you’re planning on thru-hiking the PCT or the CDT next year, sign up to take the survey when it becomes available.

Mac sits on the trail while eating a piece of pizza.

You may have noticed the elephant in the room: Mac has not thru-hiked the Appalachian Trail and does not conduct an AT survey. In fact, Mac swears he will never hike the east’s longest trail. Tune in to the Out and Back podcast to hear AT thru-hike veteran Shanty try and change his mind.

In this episode of Out and Back, Mac weaves his eight years of survey data together with his first hand observations to illuminate how the PCT has evolved over the past decade. Hint: he doesn’t think it’s all been for the better. Mac dishes his controversial view of trail angels and trail magic. Plus, Mac explains why he hates the word “tramly” (aka “trail family”).

Comb through the vast PCT and CDT survey data on Mac’s website, Halfway Anywhere. You’ll also find all types of useful insight and analysis, including gear guides for both the PCT and CDT. Sign u p for Mac’s newsletter, and follow Mac’s adventures on Instagram.

Last episode: A Definitive Guide to the Best Camp Coffee

Heather Anderson sits with a cup of coffee in her tent.

Brewing the perfect cup of coffee in the backcountry can be complicated. A pour-over leaves you with messy grounds to haul out, and instant coffee often falls short on taste. In the last episode of Out and Back, we turned to some of our favorite professional hikers — Heather “Anish” Anderson, the Hiking Viking, Adventure Alan Dixon, and Liz “Snorkel” Thomas — to unmask the secrets to brewing the best cup of coffee in camp.

Learn Anish’s hack to getting in coffee-flavored caffeine and lots of sustaining calories without actually brewing a cup of joe. Get Viking’s hilarious take on why coffee is an essential backcountry tool, even though he doesn’t really care about the taste. A trained barista, Alan provides his meticulously researched lightest and best tasting backcountry coffee setup. And last but not least, Snorkel shares the findings from her scientific, blind study on 14 brands of instant coffee. The testers: a panel of professional coffee connoisseurs.

Follow these four thru-hikers on Instagram: @anishhikes, @therealhikingviking, @1adventurealan,@lizthomashiking.

October 21, 2021

Gaia GPS How-To Out and Back Podcast

A Definitive Guide to the Best Camp Coffee

by Mary Cochenour September 30, 2021

written by Mary Cochenour

Turns out their methods for making coffee on trail are as wild and varied as their personalities.

It’s no wonder that Heather Anderson, one of the world’s most accomplished hikers, likes coffee. Heather has hiked the Appalachian Trail, the Pacific Crest Trail, and the Continental Divide Trail — three times each. She set speed records on the AT and the PCT and became one of just a handful of hikers to complete all three long trails in the span of one calendar year. With that kind of energy, caffeine must be involved.

“When you contacted me about this piece, I actually thought ‘wow I have a lot to say about coffee’. I could talk for a whole hourlong podcast about coffee,” Heather says. “I have used pretty much every method of preparation of coffee on trail and I think, at this point, with varying results.”

Oddly enough, Heather didn’t bother with coffee until desperation set in on the last leg of her record-breaking PCT thru-hike. She had been averaging more than 40 miles per day for almost two months straight when she hit a wall. On the last mountain passes in Washington, Heather caught herself falling asleep while walking in the dark. She pulled out the coffee.

“I think it was Folgers from a gas station, and I’m literally just dumping it into my water bottle with cold water and shaking it and then chugging it,” Heather says. “And that was how I got to Canada.”

After snagging the PCT record, which still stands today, Heather went after the AT record. She smashed it, this time getting her caffeine fix from food — Trail Butter. Soon she realized she’d like to try to hiking like, well, the rest of us. She set out on the CDT with her partner and brought along fresh grounds to brew really good coffee the whole way. Even though Heather prefers a pour-over or a French press to instant coffee, she explains that the barista lifestyle on a long trail isn’t easily accomplished. Her go-to when she’s focused on making miles? A quality instant brand that offers multiple servings in one package. Because one cup is never enough.

Hiking Viking drinking from a juice box.

But even instant coffee is too much trouble for some hikers. After all, you have to boil the water, and then open the packet, and stir in the coffee crystals. Eventually, when it finally cools down to a tolerable temperature, you’ll have to sit and drink it.

Hiking Viking, otherwise known as Thomas Gathman, doesn’t have time for that. A former Marine Scout Sniper, Viking has hiked the Triple Crown, completed the AT in winter, and is well known for his long, flowing, Norse-like beard. Arguably, one of the biggest personalities in the hiking community, Viking prefers his coffee fast and cheap.

“I don’t bring a French press. I don’t bring a pour-over. I don’t bring fresh grounds. I don’t bring a grinder. I don’t have that kind of time. I don’t play around like that,” Viking says. “We might buy the cheapest, crappiest coffee there is. It’s whatever saves us a penny and whatever gets the caffeine and the poop going.”

Viking has a point. Coffee is an investment of time and it adds weight to your backpack. A french press or a pour-over filter means extra gear to lug around, an assault on the most basic principles of ultralight backpacking. Can good backcountry coffee and ultralight backpacking co-exist?

Adventure Alan Dixon thinks so. Alan is founder of the trusted backpacking website www.adventurealan.com, where he posts gear reviews and how-to articles about reducing your backpacking weight. Alan is famous for carrying nothing more than he needs. But after enduring decades of bad coffee, Alan has finally endorsed a French press method and an award-winning pour-over contraption — each light enough to make the grade for ultralight backpacking. He unapologetically defends his decision to add a little extra gear and weight to his pack.

Adventure Alan sits cross legged with a pour over.

“Having a cup of coffee with people is good,” Alan says. “If I can do that for 1.8 ounces, I think it’s really on par with and sort of honed my adherence to ultralight backpacking.”

Bringing fresh grounds means you have to haul them out. If that’s a deal-breaker, Liz “Snorkel” Thomas has the answer for you. A Triple Crown hiker and AT record-setter, Liz is also an author of hiking guide books, an editor for BACKPACKER magazine and Treeline Review, and a writer for the New York Times.

A few years ago, the Times assigned Liz to write a story about the best backcountry coffee. She conducted a scientific, blind study on 14 brands of instant coffee. The testers: a panel of professional coffee connoisseurs.

“Some of it was really low quality, instant stuff,” Liz says. “But in the end, it seemed like a lot of people had very similar goals of what they wanted in an instant coffee and it was super fun to see what everyone’s results were regardless of whether they were in the backcountry or the front country.”

Want to hear Liz’s coffee taste test findings? Tune in to the Out and Back podcast. You’ll also find out the brands of instant coffee Heather Anderson uses on every trip, Viking’s coffee alternative, and the details on Adventure Alan’s 1.8-ounce coffee methods.

Liz Thomas sits with an insulated thermos in front of her tent.

Follow these four thru-hikers on Instagram: @anishhikes, @therealhikingviking, @1adventurealan,@lizthomashiking.

September 30, 2021

Gaia GPS Out and Back Podcast

Owls and UFOs with Ultralight Expert Mike Clelland

by Abby Levene September 9, 2021

written by Abby Levene

Ultralight backpacking expert Mike Clelland has slept outside as often as possible for decades. Cowboy camping one night 15 years ago, something happened that changed Mike’s life forever. He tried to dismiss it, but it happened again. And again. That series of events sent Mike down the unlikely path of studying how powerful coincidences connect us to the supernatural.

In this very special episode of Out and Back, Mike dives into the mysterious world of owl synchronicities — and their connection to UFO abductions. Yes, you read that correctly.

Mike sits on a rock while prepping lunch.

It all started with a highly charged owl encounter on top of a mountain.

“I saw the owls. And I heard a voice in my head that said, ‘This has something to do with the UFO’s. You are an abductee,” Mike recounts on Out and Back. “To feel that, and to hear it in my head, it changed the direction of my life. I started exploring the symbolic meaning of owls and their connection to the UFO contact experience. And it took over my life.”

Mike is a masterful storyteller and will leave you clutching your seat (or trekking poles) as he shares his first-hand encounters with owls and extraterrestrial life. He weaves his own narrative into the rich history of owl lore, dreams, shamanistic stories, and other first-hand accounts to reveal this mystical world lurking in plain sight.

Whether you’re a believer or a skeptic, you’ll want to tune in to hear Mike’s perspective. At the very least, you will never see the world the same way again.

Check out Mike’s book The Messengers, which dives into the overlapping worlds of owls, synchronicities, and UFO abduction. His companion book Stories from The Messengers goes further into the symbolic and literal links between owls and UFOs. Mike is also the illustrator and author behind a series of books on mastering outdoor techniques. And finally, check out Mike’s longstanding blog, Hidden Experience, and his podcast, The Unseen with Mike Clelland.

Last Episode: Overcoming Backpacking Fears with She Dreams of Alpine

Allison smiles next to a trail sign on the JMT.

Newbie and seasoned backpackers alike all hold fears around backcountry travel. Outdoor Backpacking Educator and Empowerment Coach Allison Boyle shares how to overcome them on the last episode of the Out and Back podcast. Allison is the face behind the ultra-popular blog and coaching service She Dreams of Alpine, which teaches women how to become safe, confident, and self-sufficient in the backcountry.

Allison shares her stumbling blocks when she started adventuring outside, and how her fears initially continued to grow as she gained more experience. She talks about the top three fears beginner backpackers face, and how to overcome them. She explains “trip resistance,” that dark cloud of anxiety that seems to float over your head the week before any trip — no matter your experience level. Learn how to quiet that inner voice telling you to abandon your plans, so you can get out and have a blast on the trail. Tune in to learn Allison’s favorite breakfast foods in the backcountry, the one item she can’t leave behind, and how she turned her outdoor passion into a career.

Follow She Dreams of Alpine on Instagram, check out the blog for tried and true advice (including the free Ultimate Outdoor Adventure Starter Kit), and consider signing up for She Dreams of Alpine’s Backpacking Badass program to learn how to become a confident and self-sufficient backpacker.

September 9, 2021

Gaia GPS Out and Back Podcast

Overcoming Backpacking Fears with She Dreams of Alpine

by Abby Levene August 26, 2021

written by Abby Levene

 How to listen: iTunes | Google Podcasts | Spotify | Stitcher | Pocket Casts |  RadioPublic | Breaker | Castbox

Newbie and seasoned backpackers alike all hold fears around backcountry travel. Outdoor Backpacking Educator and Empowerment Coach Allison Boyle shares how to overcome them this week on the Out and Back podcast. Allison is the face behind the ultra-popular blog and coaching service She Dreams of Alpine, which teaches women how to become safe, confident, and self-sufficient in the backcountry.

In this fun and informative conversation, Allison tells hosts Mary and Abby how a city girl from Houston, Texas ended up becoming a backpacking expert. It certainly didn’t happen overnight. Allison shares her stumbling blocks when she started adventuring outside, and how her fears initially continued to grow as she gained more experience. She talks about the top three fears beginner backpackers face, and how to overcome them.

“We’re scared of what we don’t know,” Allison says on Out and Back. “Things we do in our everyday life, like drive or walk down a busy city street, are more dangerous than anything we would do in the outdoors. It’s just, they’re more familiar to us and we’re able to step into those scenarios more. And if you’re a new backpacker, you can’t imagine yourself in the outdoors at all. Once you start building those experiences for yourself, those fears start to go away.”

Alison explains “trip resistance,” that dark cloud of anxiety that seems to float over your head the week before any trip — no matter your experience level. Learn how to quiet that inner voice telling you to abandon your plans, so you can get out and have a blast on the trail. Tune in to learn Allison’s favorite breakfast foods in the backcountry, the one item she can’t leave behind, and how she turned her outdoor passion into a career.

Allison smiles on the trail while holding her hiking poles over her head.

Next Episode: UFOs with Ultralight Expert Mike Clelland

Yes, you read that correctly. In the next very special episode of Out and Back, author, ultralight backpacking expert, and UFO historian Mike Clelland dives into the mysterious world of alien abductions.

Mike is a masterful storyteller and will leave you clutching your seat (or trekking poles) as he shares his first-hand encounters with extraterrestrial life. He tells the story of how an owl gave him a message on a mountaintop, leading to his fascination with UFOs. Whether you’re a believer or a skeptic, you’ll want to tune in to hear what Mike has to say about the natural and supernatural worlds.

In the meantime, check out Mike’s book The Messengers, which dives into the overlapping worlds of owls, synchronicities, and UFO abduction. His companion book Stories from The Messengers goes further into the symbolic and literal links between owls and UFOs. Mike is also the illustrator and author behind a series of books on mastering outdoor techniques. And finally, check out Mike’s longstanding blog, Hidden Experience, and his podcast, The Unseen with Mike Clelland.

Last Episode: Life With Fire

As wildfires derail recreation plans across the West, former wildland firefighter Amanda Monthei makes sense of this new “normal.” Tune in to the last episode of Out and Back to get a behind-the-scenes view on what it’s like to fight fire, and how we can manage wildfires going forward.

“You can’t just exist superficially within the landscape,” Amanda says on Out and Back. “You have to be an active member of it. We’ve been suppressing fire for too long. We need to like recognize that fire very much belongs in these places.”

Amanda unearths why wildfires remain vital for ecosystem health, and how humans misunderstand this life force. She gets into the history of wildfire management in the U.S. and how we’ve primed conditions for fires of unprecedented scope. Amanda dives into what we can learn from indigenous fire management practices, and how we can better coexist with fire going forward.

Follow Amanda on Instagram, and check out her brilliant podcast on all things fire, Life with Fire.

August 26, 2021

Gaia GPS Out and Back Podcast

Amanda Monthei on Life with Fire

by Abby Levene August 9, 2021

written by Abby Levene

As wildfires derail recreation plans across the West, how can we account for longer and fiercer fire seasons? Former wildland firefighter Amanda Monthei lifts up the curtain on fire management and misperceptions this week on the Out and Back podcast. Armed with four years of experience working on engine and hotshot crews in Idaho and Oregon as well as her experience as a wildfire Public Information Officer, Amanda sheds a light on wildfire you’ve probably never seen.

Amanda holds a giant set of antlers next to her head. She's in a hardhat and her firefighting clothes.

In a deep and far reaching chat with Abby, Amanda unearths why wildfires remain vital for ecosystem health, and how humans misunderstand this life force. She gets into the history of wildfire management in the U.S. and how we’ve primed conditions for fires of unprecedented scope. Amanda dives into what we can learn from indigenous fire management practices, and how we can better coexist with fire going forward.

A Michigander, Amanda shares her unlikely path to growing infatuated with fire. Hear her biggest lesson from working as a wildland firefighter — it’s not what you would expect. She also paints a vivid picture of what it’s like to work around the clock with a crew in completely uncertain and often dangerous conditions. Listen through to the end to hear why despite the deep physical and psychological satisfaction of wildland firefighting work, Amanda ultimately decided to part with the field.

Finally, Amanda connects wildfire to our backcountry adventures. Learn how you can make the most of new life teeming in burn scars, and how you can fold fire into your life. Follow Amanda on Instagram, and check out her brilliant podcast on all things fire, Life with Fire.

Last Episode: Gaia GPS Offroad Podcast Debuts with Burning Jeep Tale

We’ve launched a podcast all about roaming the world on four wheels! And if you have a thirst for adventure, you won’t want to miss the debut episode of the Gaia GPS Offroad Podcast sponsored by Trails Offroad. Host, fighter jet pilot, and overlander Wade May dives deep under the hood with experts in the field. International travelers and backyard explorers alike transport you to their most harrowing encounters, biggest lessons, and most epic adventures on the trail.

The first episode launches with a story from Casey Kaiser, an experienced overlander with a penchant for finding abandoned homesteads in the desert. Casey takes us on a complete misadventure. Thirty miles off the grid, Casey’s fully upgraded Jeep Wrangler Rubicon JKU suddenly caught fire. The flames quickly engulfed Casey’s entire vehicle, leaving him stranded in Oregon’s high desert at night. Casey made it home safely to tell us what he learned from this unforeseen catastrophe.

The Gaia GPS Offroad podcast drops every other week. Catch it in between episodes of Out and Back. Give it a follow on our offroad and overland Instagram channel @gaiagpsoffroad.

August 9, 2021

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